Post by Krænt on May 1, 2016 6:07:36 GMT
[2:20 AM] Krænt: What is your favourite advice to give to others about having success as a hypnotist/subject?
[3:31 AM] ~Alex~: Subject: Do what comes naturally, as long as you're enjoying yourself you're doing it right. There's no wrong way as long as you're trying and having fun
Tist: Confidence is at least half the battle, if not more. If you goof up, roll with it instead of flounder over it
[1:18 PM] DarkElement: Alex had really good answers so i'll try and add something different:
(Disclaimer, i'm not too experienced in this so I wouldn't be surprised if I get completely refuted) Something i've learned from sessions with a friend of mine is that when he would ask me questions, i'd have an answer immediately but then I would think about it and get conflicted. Much like the decision-game of flipping a coin and picking the choice that correlated with what side you wanted it to land on mid-air, perhaps when you answer a question immediately it's your subconscious that's answering, instead of giving it time for your conscious to interfere. It's very interesting, because at least for me I expected it to be completely different(and it still may be completely different to other subs), but I still have a very good deal of control. Anyway, perhaps i've rambled but I hope you guys know what I mean.
[5:10 PM] ~Alex~: @darkelement Giving a result immediately off the top of your head may be the result in it coming from your heart, but without passing through your mind thoroughly it may or may not be expressed most clearly
Tist/Public Speaking tip: Work on getting rid of Ums, Uhs, and other filler words. It's OK if you pause in your speech for a moment and let it be quiet while you think.
[7:06 PM] DarkElement: That's a very good point @~Alex~ , thanks!
[5:15 AM] Theatrics: Definitely with Alex.
[5:16 AM] Theatrics: Another tip for removing those awkward pauses is to just slow down. Make every word you say sound carefully chosen. Easier said than done, perhaps, but when it works, it works very well.
[7:24 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Subject: follow instructions exactly as they're given.
Understand what hypnosis is. There's an abundance of bad
hypnotists; choose well.
Hypnotist: yes, your stuff works. And yes, you're wrong.
Never stop learning.
[8:03 AM] ~Alex~: Thanks, Theatrics!
[8:04 AM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 That is an interesting dichotomy there. Sounds like you're suggesting subjects figure out what hypnosis is, but letting tists know that's impossible
[8:05 AM] ~Alex~: I do agree with the "never stop learning" bit, though
[8:05 AM] ~Alex~: You stagnate as soon as you "figure everything out"(edited)
[8:08 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's not a dichotomy. I'm saying, one can never know precisely how things work. I started with Ericksonian, went through Elman, now I'm delving into the neuropsych of hypnosis, and shit doesn't stop amazing me at the complexity of what's really going on.
[8:09 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Does this make sense, @~Alex~ ?
[8:10 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The subject is only interested in what they need to do. The hypnotist is concerned with that, AND how to best structure instructions for the subject so they have an easier time, and better results.
[8:11 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's part of why I loathe Ericksonian hypnosis. It's hella inefficient.
[8:29 AM] ~Alex~: It does, it's simply an interesting thing x3
Though I like Ericksonian hypnosis because it has a tendency to work on people who don't even realize something is happening. I've had a lot of success with it
[9:12 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Ericksonian works wonderfully, however it is unequivocally slower and overall less effective in doing the "weird" stuff. Like hallucinations, stage shows, achieving somnambulism and meta-somnambulistic states, etc.
[9:13 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's part of the reason why I switched to Elman in the first place; I am specializing in mental disorders, and Ericksonian doesn't help much here, especially when people are emotionally disturbed, and start abreacting, can't focus, etc. etc.
[9:29 AM] ~Alex~: Also keep in mind that it's not an either-or. Styles and tricks can be combined
[10:30 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Oh, absolutely. I'm talking from a purist perspective, despite using everything in my actual work.
[10:30 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: I still rely on Elman more than Erickson however, especially when dealing with "tough" people.
[11:40 AM] Alexis DPStrogen: makes a note to do more research.... A LOT more research....
[11:44 AM] Alexis DPStrogen: One of the problems of being self-taught is that I don't really know the differences between techniques, so my work tends to be a weird combination of stuff >.>
[12:02 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Feel free to ask. I highly recommend getting training, but it's not necessary as long as you have a network of people to talk to and share notes with.
[2:39 PM] ~Alex~: Once you know the names of major theories you can also google the terms and download study guides and notes from dozens of sources
[2:42 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: True!
[2:42 PM] ~Alex~: Some more reputable than others, mind you, but in a sense as long as it sounds like it's good enough to work you can typically just gaslight past it with your confidence and their willingness
[3:11 PM] Knowing-Smile: I found Wiseguy's book helpful as well
[3:11 PM] Knowing-Smile: well, informative, at least
[3:43 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Haven't read it, personally. Does it cover advanced concepts, or is it more the Reality is Plastic?
[3:49 PM] DarkElement: The Reality is Plastic?
[3:49 PM] DarkElement: Oh, like how reality is only what we perceive of it right?
[4:05 PM] ~Alex~: Looks like a book that is not as good as Derren Brown's series
[4:19 PM] Knowing-Smile: It's kind of just a basic primer on erotic hypnosis
[4:20 PM] Knowing-Smile: I should still read Lee & Pynch's amnesia book
[4:20 PM] Knowing-Smile: it's dumb and won't work on my kindle
[4:21 PM] Dutchman: tbh... i never read a book.. but i have done all of it.. amnesia.. hallucination.. age regression.. all of it
[4:23 PM] Knowing-Smile: same, but it's nice reading tips and tricks
[4:24 PM] ~Alex~: Is that a new book, Knowing?
[4:24 PM] Knowing-Smile: I was a lot happier doing amnesia play after going to Lee's class on it
[4:24 PM] Knowing-Smile: same with drug play
[4:24 PM] ~Alex~: I remember getting a survey to fill out at some point from her
[4:25 PM] ~Alex~: Ran out of time, though :/
[4:25 PM] Knowing-Smile: the amenesia one?
[4:25 PM] Knowing-Smile: I think it came out around christmas
[4:27 PM] DarkElement: Whaddya mean by amnesia play?
[4:27 PM] Knowing-Smile: memory play, etc
[4:27 PM] DarkElement: Ok wasn't sure if it was what I was thinking of or not
[4:27 PM] Knowing-Smile: like safely having a subject forget things
[4:27 PM] DarkElement: Yea
[4:28 PM] Knowing-Smile: including like having no memory at all for periods
[4:28 PM] Dutchman: you know a great anmesia suggestion? ^^ if they are in a trance.. you say.. and let all this nice trance and place and suggestions stay with the subcon mind.. and most of the time they will forget it
?
[4:28 PM] DarkElement: Ayy that's on the todo list
[4:28 PM] Knowing-Smile: or not being able to form new memories
[4:28 PM] DarkElement: Waaatttttt
[4:28 PM] Knowing-Smile: yea, that's fun
[4:28 PM] DarkElement: That's awesome
[4:28 PM] Dutchman: yeah
[4:28 PM] DarkElement: added
[4:29 PM] Knowing-Smile: and Lee and Pynch explained how the mind works and what suggestions are most effective for achieving these states, etc.
[4:29 PM] ~Alex~: I'd be interested in reading that
[4:29 PM] DarkElement: One day!
[4:29 PM] Knowing-Smile: this was from their thing at MEEHU, not the book
[4:30 PM] ~Alex~: The way people parse memory play doesn't make sense to me, so I typically treat it with skepticism
[4:30 PM] Knowing-Smile: Lee did a thing at WEEHU about drug play and how to avoid bad things happening, like accidently triggering relapses when you're unaware of a subjects past drug use?
[4:30 PM] DarkElement: Oh god
[4:30 PM] DarkElement: That would be horrible
[4:31 PM] Knowing-Smile: sometimes reading and listening is a good thing because you learn from peoples unfortunate mistakes
[4:31 PM] Dutchman: i never done drug play
[4:31 PM] Knowing-Smile: Maestro's abreaction class was along the same lines
[4:31 PM] DarkElement: I am glad I have never done the drugs so I don't have this fear
[4:31 PM] Knowing-Smile: like, here's how to spot an abreaction, adress it, and decypher the issue.
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: abreaction?
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: Abnormal reaction?
[4:32 PM] Knowing-Smile: abnormal reaction
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: Ok
[4:32 PM] Knowing-Smile: aka your subject reacting in a way you were not expecting
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: Yep
[4:32 PM] Knowing-Smile: it can be good, or they can start screaming
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: ._.
[4:33 PM] DarkElement: Phobias, past trauma, etc
[4:33 PM] Knowing-Smile: i.e. one time I did a thing that involved falling into water to relax, and the girl had almost drowned.
[4:33 PM] DarkElement: Yea...
[4:34 PM] Knowing-Smile: the class was cool, proff-x did a followup the next day where she staged abreactions for tists in the class and had them figure out how to recover and take care of the situation
[4:35 PM] DarkElement: 1) Did she just add several abreactions to the subjects or what?
2) Who is proff-x
[4:36 PM] Dutchman: tbh... i never been so deep that i have fully believed or seen something that was not there?
[4:37 PM] Knowing-Smile: she acted them out herself
[4:37 PM] DarkElement: Oh ok
[4:38 PM] Knowing-Smile: and she's a person who runs random stuff in the san francisco community
[4:38 PM] Knowing-Smile: I don't really know her well
[4:38 PM] DarkElement: Alrighty
[4:42 PM] Knowing-Smile: but yea, I guess circling back, advice: just because you have a knack for hypnosis, don't become complacent and think that reading more or learning more about it is beneath you. (I'm guilty of this)
[4:43 PM] DarkElement: Same goes for everything!?
[4:43 PM] Dutchman: i'm just lazy >.>
[4:44 PM] ~Alex~: There's a lot of people I've stumbled across who have this "highway or my way" approach for hypnosis
[4:45 PM] ~Alex~: As Surgo mentioned, what matters as a tist is not your expectations, but the subject's
[4:45 PM] Dutchman: true
[5:04 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: Agreed
[5:28 PM] Knowing-Smile: U GO DEEP 4 ME M8
[5:32 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: WHY WON'T YOU DROP I SAID SLEEP AND EVERYTHING
[5:37 PM] DarkElement: Pretty sure this channel is not meant for that, however.
[5:38 PM] Knowing-Smile: heh
[5:38 PM] ~Alex~: I got so confused thinking that the topic had switched to talking about Oprah's preternatural skill in Ericksonian Hypnosis
[5:39 PM] Knowing-Smile: !meme yuno "Y U NO" "GO DEEPER?!"
[5:39 PM] HypnoBoot 2.5: i.imgflip.com/12rvgl.jpg
[5:39 PM] Knowing-Smile: I felt that was at least a little related
[5:39 PM] ~Alex~: xD
[9:09 PM] ~Alex~: For those interested in Ericksonian Hypnosis, the Zebu Cards here are good ways to practice: www.scribd.com/doc/20656494/Zebu-Hypnotic-Language-Card-Game
Scribd
Zebu Hypnotic Language Card Game
Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.
[9:21 PM] Knowing-Smile: I wish someone would just reprint those
[9:37 PM] ~Alex~: Only you have the power to change the world!
[9:38 PM] ~Alex~: Also: www.amazon.com/Zebu-Hypnotic-Language-Card-Game/dp/1555520464
Zebu: The Hypnotic Language Card Game [Robert Anue] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Created by Robert Anue, ZEBU is a normal boxed deck of 52 playing cards with 52 extraordinary language patterns taken from the field of NLP and the field of hypnosis from the work of Milton H. Erickson
[9:38 PM] ~Alex~: The more interesting method is to convert them to .png files and host them on a card-type server
[12:15 AM] Deb: As far as safeties go, if it's something your concerned about, don't be afraid to talk about it with the tist. Communication is vital so that boundaries are respected and both parties have safe/enjoyable fun.
[12:15 AM] ~Alex~: This times 1,000
[12:15 AM] Alexis DPStrogen: YES
[5:16 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: "not being able to form new memories"
Please do not misrepresent the actual mechanics between apparent effect and actual effect.
[5:17 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The person still forms all new memories, like normal, however amnesia simply makes it impossible for them to make those memories conscious.
[12:05 PM] JV: Mmmm
[12:05 PM] JV: Is amnesia necessarily always equated to the suppression of memories?
[12:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's not suppression.
[12:18 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's inhibition of the recall process.
[12:18 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The memory isn't affected or accessed in the slightest in the first place.
[12:18 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: ^
[12:22 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: the way I do it is giving a suggestion that INSTEAD of remembering, they feel the hazy pleasure of not remembering, because good pets forget and if you're a good pet, that means that every time you try to remember, you'll instead think of the arousal that comes with forgetting. It feels so much better to forget, and since that feels better than focusing on the memories of trance.... You can give the illusion of true amnesia
[12:25 PM] JV: Interesting..
[12:25 PM] JV: you provide an alternative incentive
[12:29 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: Mmhmm. As for forgetting stuff like numbers and names, you just suggest that holding on to that word is like holding water in your hand. Sure, you can grasp it for a moment, but it's always hazy, never clear and focused. And it quickly drips between your fingers and soaks into your skin
[12:30 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: Mind you, with my pet, I CAN actually suppress her memories - She's been programmed and conditioned so much that if you tell her to forget something, her brain will actually suppress that memory or information. She's got a weird brain though?
[2:14 PM] ~Alex~: I've been able to "forget" things before, but either it's a thing where I know what I'm forgetting conceptually and consciously choose not to recall (in methods of distraction similar to Nyalexis's) or it's simply gone and I don't get it back without some very direct reminders
[2:15 PM] ~Alex~: On the plus side, proficiency with the former means that I can let concepts slip from my mind if they're unwanted, particularly very disturbing things that most people seem to get burned into their retinas
[2:15 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: Hehe natural brain bleach!
[2:20 PM] ~Alex~: The utility is wonderful <3
[2:30 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @alexis DPStrogen , again, it's not suppression.
As far as suggestions go, "when I snap my fingers, you won't be able to remember or recall XYZ until I tell you otherwise" is sufficient.
[2:32 PM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 , when you suppress a memory like that, how would you describe what happens in the subject's head?(edited)
[2:35 PM] Dutchman: same as with a pc.. if you delete it.. it is allways there.. only you can't access it
[2:35 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: As with all hypnotic amnesia, the suggestion inhibits the subject's ability to make the unconscious memory conscious again.
[2:44 PM] ~Alex~: I understand the theoretical description of what's happening, but I'm wondering about the mental process in which the subject goes through to accomplish the inhibition ofmthe subject's ability to make the unconscious memory conscious
[2:45 PM] ~Alex~: In effect, I'm asking for step by step instructions on how to make a PB&J sandwich. I know you get the ingredients out and put them together properly, but not how that would be accomplished
[2:46 PM] ~Alex~: Disclaimer: I know how to make a peanut butter and jelly sammich
[2:48 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: I don't entirely understand the question.
[2:48 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Do you mind elaborating slightly?
[2:53 PM] ~Alex~: So if asked how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, someone might say "Well, you just get the bread and peanut butter and jelly, put the peanut butter and jelly onto the bread, and eat it". But if you've never seen a sandwich before nor made food yourself, you may have difficulty with just those descriptions
On the other hand, if someone said " Get two slices of bread, a knife, and some peanut butter and jelly. Use the knife to spread the peanut butter evenly on one face of one slice of bread, then get some jelly and spread some jelly evenly on one face of the other slice of bread. Put the peanut buttered and jellied sides against one another and eat" then you have complete and accurate directions with very little wiggle room.
With regards to your answer, it was more of the former than the latter. What does feel like to make something unconscious, what thought process inhibits a subjects reflexive knowledge of thinking their own name when it comes up? Etc etc(edited)
[3:01 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Okay, back. Sorry. So basically you're asking about how this works from the subject's perspective?
[3:02 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's basically like a gap in ones memory.
[3:02 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: For example, if you have never bungee jumped, you'll get the same thing if you try to remember how you felt when you did that.
[3:02 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: What comes up? Nothing.
[3:23 PM] ~Alex~: That is a good start, but what leads from "remembering how it was to bungee jump" to "not remembering how it was to bungee jump"
[3:23 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: There's no step.
[3:23 PM] ~Alex~: I suspect there's no single right answer because minds function very differently
[3:23 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Oh, there is.
[3:23 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Basically.
[3:24 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Since the process of recall is inhibited, nothing happens.
[3:24 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: One literally is unable to make the unconscious memory (permanent memory) conscious (bring it into the short-term memory).
[3:25 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The whole process is basically unconscious, which is why a deep enough hypnosis is necessary.
[3:26 PM] ~Alex~: How is it inhibited is my curiosity. Answering "there is no step" sounds akin to saying "a microwave heats things because it does". It works, and you can use it, and it'll work each time, but the method exists even if you're unaware
[3:26 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The inhibition is in the subconscious mind. It's a separate mechanism which interferes with normal recall, basically.
[3:28 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/hypnosis_memory.htm
[3:37 PM] ~Alex~: Ah! Imma look into that
[3:38 PM] ~Alex~: It still feels like a hand wave, though
[9:43 AM] FallingInward: I'm not convinced that any one particular framework in psychology is accurate, but many can be useful
[9:44 AM] FallingInward: Anyway, my advice to budding hypnotists is to worry about demeanor and ethics before you worry about technique.
[9:44 AM] FallingInward: fallinginward.tumblr.com/post/142773050165/hypnofetishtrustpyramid
[9:45 AM] FallingInward: I wrote a lot of my general thoughts on the subject here. Enjoy~
[9:45 AM] Ferinzz: Have had that open for the last few days and still haven't read all of it >.<
[9:46 AM] FallingInward: Haha. It is a bit long, but I wanted to be thorough.
[9:46 AM] Ferinzz: I like the thorough.
[9:46 AM] FallingInward: I don't like soundbite advice for something as important as consent ethics.
[9:46 AM] Gale Falcon: That's fair enough, it's a bit late for too much reading atm but I'll give it a read later
[9:48 AM] Ferinzz: Mhm, can't say it enough. I feel like the more you understand about such things the better you'll be as a person when interacting with others. Shows your respect I guess.
[9:48 AM] Gale Falcon: Agreed.
[9:56 AM] FallingInward: I think the take away advice is that the best way to make someone suggestible is to have a healthy and trusting relationship.
[9:57 AM] FallingInward: It really breaks down barriers.
[9:58 AM] FallingInward: Trust can take you even farther than rapport, because it goes beyond surface level. It's more than just charming a person, it is connecting with them.
[9:58 AM] FallingInward: What better way to get into someone's head than to already be there?
[10:00 AM] Gale Falcon: To be able to tap into a connection you already have as opposed to trying to make a new one
[10:01 AM] Ferinzz: Going from that perspective it definitely opens up many other methods of initiating some sessions depending on the relationship the two have.
[10:02 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward question: where do you draw the line between seduction and non-consensual play?
It's rather easy to lure a person into sex or even do actual changework/therapy/conditioning on a person without asking for consent, but implicitly getting it (in the form of "yes, fuck me harder").
Especially taking into account that even normal sex elicits hypnotic phenomena in the form of hyperempiria, the line here is blurry. Then you have to consider that they subconsciously do want to follow suggestions if they're going along with your words, and the fact that their self-preservation function is always active.
I'd say there's entirely no ethical concern in using hypnosis covertly insofar as it's done with the best interest of the other person in mind, even if it's just giving them a very good time in bed.
[10:32 AM] FallingInward: I agree. I actually spend a great deal of time considering this blurry line.
[10:33 AM] FallingInward: On one hand, one can hardly disallow seduction; on some level, every interaction we have with a potential sexual partner is tinged by the desire to get their consent.
[10:34 AM] FallingInward: As a hypnotist, once you are aware of the impact of your words and actions, everything you do has an influence.
[10:35 AM] FallingInward: The best answer I have come up with is taking care not to work against a person's best interests, and to allow that they have the right to define those interests for themselves.
[10:35 AM] FallingInward: Covert hypnotism is a tricky subject in this sense.
[10:36 AM] FallingInward: I prefer to draw the line at actual suggestions; luring is acceptable, as is posturing to elicit an effect.
[10:37 AM] FallingInward: Although its true that a predator could easily work within these limits to hurt someone, it is ultimately just guidelines for communication, which can be used for good or evil depending on the intent of the communicator.
[10:38 AM] FallingInward: I do like the concept of implied consent spaces, such as the public hypno fun room, where people are aware and consenting of the possibility of being hypnotized.
[10:39 AM] Gale Falcon: Yes. spaces like that are a good idea, and they give people opportunity to participate under their own terms.
[10:40 AM] Gale Falcon: As in they enter that space willingly, they're aware and consent to the possibility they'll be affected either directly or collaterally
[10:40 AM] FallingInward: That gives everyone a heads up about the potential of unusually effective methods of communication being employed, which makes "covert" more acceptable than in everyday conversation, wherein your average person wouldn't be prepared or consenting for such techniques.
[10:40 AM] Gale Falcon: And in such cases people might consider such techniques invasive or otherwise
[10:41 AM] FallingInward: I've still seen people get hurt or at least made very uncomfortable in such spaces, but only because the tist wasn't being responsible by checking the subject's state of mind.
[10:42 AM] FallingInward: They felt pressured and confused because they weren't familiar with NLP/driving techniques.
[10:43 AM] FallingInward: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 I hope that answers your question.
[10:43 AM] Gale Falcon: It certainly relayed a lot of helpful information
[10:57 AM] ~Alex~: I find implicit consent much more informing than explicit consent, but I've had someone explicitly state "yes" while all the implications in body language screamed "no". They have to be considered in unison.
[11:39 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward yes, it does. Feeling pressured and confused is an implicit "no" in my book, also, @~Alex~
[11:50 AM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 It is an implicit "no" indeed. I'd thought I took precautions against pressuring but clearly had missed something or other. The response absolutely floored me, catching me off guard, and after thinking on it I consider my reaction to it to be my single greatest mistake and regret in my life(edited)
[11:53 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Dotell. Storytime?
[12:15 PM] ~Alex~: Basically I took the subject at their word instead of trusting that "something is wrong" feeling, and that is never going to happen again
[12:15 PM] ~Alex~: Already called out three people on it since and things have worked out well
[12:24 PM] Ferinzz: Sooo, what do you do when you can't see their body language?
[12:29 PM] ~Alex~: If you suspect anything is off you should be pushing for at least a voice conversation
[12:30 PM] ~Alex~: I pushed and got a video conversation and squandered it
[12:30 PM] ~Alex~: Otherwise you're relying on catching them being evasive or contradictory
[12:30 PM] ~Alex~: Their behavior may still be off, but it's waaaaay easier to tell in voice or video
[12:36 PM] Ferinzz: I see, thanks
[12:47 PM] ~Alex~: Also, that implies you should be talking
[12:47 PM] ~Alex~: If you don't communicate, everything falls apart
[12:47 PM] ~Alex~: Communication is key
[12:48 PM] Ferinzz: Mhm
[12:51 PM] Hay1tsme: Which is worse: Bad communication or no communication?
[12:52 PM] Ferinzz: Bad communication, because no communication means you aren't doing anything \o/
[12:53 PM] MeltySarah: Bad communications I think ... More and less is worse than keeping it the same ~(edited)
[12:54 PM] Ferinzz: I don't think I understand what you mean in your second part there.
[12:55 PM] MeltySarah: If I ask you want me to punch you harder , and you don't tell me anything , I'll give you the same strenght ... if you say no i'll punch less
[12:57 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Worse: bad communication.
[12:57 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: No communication is no hypnosis, bad communication is bad hypnosis.
[1:02 PM] ~Alex~: No communication is bad communication. I put "lying" and "refusing to talk" both in the same category of "your relationship is going to get fucked"
[1:02 PM] ~Alex~: Surgo's point of view is assuming you're working with people you don't already have rapport with. Maintaining rapport requires honesty and communication
[1:03 PM] Ferinzz: That was how my answer would have worked as well
[1:05 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Building rapport is keeping your promises. "In a moment I'll count from 1 to 3. 1, 2, 3."
[1:05 PM] Ferinzz: If doing things with a person you've already started to interact with and not communication you're not going to be taking account of how they feel or if they even want to do anything. Running purely off of your own assumptions and desires. Bad communication... Well that's not good either, it could go anywhere from giving the person something they hadn't wanted, or missinterpretting to really hurting them.
[1:05 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's why the pre-talk is such a necessity.
[1:05 PM] Ferinzz: Mhm
[1:08 PM] Ferinzz: from my point of view pretalk is what should determine the direction of a session and the overall goal of continued sessions. Why? Because they aren't in the same frame of mind while in trance and will more easily just say 'okay'.
[1:08 PM] Ferinzz: That perspective just taken from something unrelated to hypnosis so other's might argue against it.
[1:09 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Well, yes. But moreso than that, it needs to explain to them what hypnosis is, isn't, and what they're supposed to do in order to get hypnotized. A person who fears hypnosis simply won't go into hypnosis. A person who has an ambivalent attitude towards suggestions won't follow them when hypnotized. A person who doesn't have a hypnotic contract will be tough to keep in check. A hypnotist who breaks the contract will make the hypnotee more prone to doing their own stuff in their head.
[1:10 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's why the pre-talk is so necessary. Without it, people naturally stay guarded, and fear, when there's nothing to be afraid of.
[1:10 PM] FallingInward: ^ Agreed
[1:10 PM] Ferinzz: Nicely put.
[1:10 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: FWIW, this is my pre-talk: hypnox.pl/what-is-hypnosis/
[1:12 PM] FallingInward: My pre-talk is largely based on what I want to accomplish. I hold several competing ideas of what is actually happening when you hypnotize someone.
[1:13 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward I'm more than happy to discuss that, as it's a fascinating topic in general.
[1:13 PM] FallingInward: For instance, I find arguing whether it is "state-based" to be irrelevant, since it has been demonstrated that many experiential changes have no currently measurable change in physiological state.
[1:13 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Uh, yes, they do have it. Let me grab you the papers.
[1:14 PM] FallingInward: I mean, for instance, what does a brain look like when experiencing the placebo effect?
[1:14 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0026374
www.thamesmedicallectures.com/ibva.html
www.mcmaster.ca/inabis98/woody/rainville0419/two.html
[1:15 PM] FallingInward: It is much more important whether you tell the subject that their brain is changing, or not changing, than whether it actually is, imho.
[1:15 PM] FallingInward: Thanks for the links, I will check them when not on mobile.
[1:15 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Yeah. It's a suggestion, as everything.
[1:15 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Still, I have a strict policy of always telling the truth.
[1:16 PM] FallingInward: Sometimes I say it is, sometimes I say it isn't. My belief on the matter are ambiguous, because I have seen strong arguments for different paradigms.
[1:16 PM] FallingInward: Mainly I go for a framework that provides the best experience.
[1:16 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward every learning process induces neuroplastic and biochemical changes.
[1:16 PM] FallingInward: Haha. Of course.
[1:17 PM] FallingInward: But does a hypnotic change differ from a non-hypnotic one?
[1:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Nope.
[1:17 PM] FallingInward: Does something bypassing the critical factor look any different than something that is critically evaluated?
[1:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: You can achieve the same change, but the process will be inhibited when the conscious mind is involved.
[1:18 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Let me get you an explanation... links here somewhere, one moment.
[1:18 PM] FallingInward: In these cases, you could argue that hypnosis is not a state at all, because any changes in state are identical to non-hypnotic processes.
[1:18 PM] FallingInward: You could argue... and as fascinating as the discussion is in an armchair, the subject's experience can be guided either way.
[1:19 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: www.stresscards.com/hypnotherapy_reappraisal.php
"Of course, we know that under ordinary circumstances
suggestions are not always accepted (and thus conditioning
doesn’t always result when an appropriate suggestion is
given). Why is this? Osgood [1963] holds that a suggestion
will tend to be rejected if it is incongruent with the
subject’s previously held beliefs and attitudes or his
present perceptions. It would seem that if there were some
means of eliminating the latter we should be able to have a
suggestion more readily accepted and thus facilitate the
higher-order conditioning. Hypnosis is such a means.
Thus we come to the reason hypnosis is so effective in
facilitating therapy: the incongruent perceptions, beliefs,
and attitudes are kept from interfering with the suggestion
(and thus with the conditioning). As put by Pavlov:
"The command of the hypnotist, in correspondence with the
general law, concentrates the excitation in the subject
(which is in a condition of partial inhibition) in some
definite narrow region, at the same time intensifying (by
negative induction) the inhibition of the rest of the cortex
and so abolishing all competing effects of contemporary
stimuli [present perceptions] and traces left by previously
received ones [previously held beliefs and attitudes]. This
accounts for the large and practically insurmountable
influence of suggestions as a stimulus during hypnosis as
well as shortly after it."
[Pavlov, 1960, p.407;].
Dr. Al Barrios, a clinical psychologist (BS Caltech, Ph.D. UCLA) is a recognized authority on the power of the word and its effect on human behavior. SPC provides a series of simple, step-by-step mind focusing techniques that allow individuals to reprogram any behavior they wish to change.
[1:20 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Hypnosis is not a state. Hypnosis is a process. Hypnotic trance is a state.
[1:20 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's why we have such wonderful tools as dynamic self-hypnosis, AIM, HWT, and others.
[1:21 PM] FallingInward: nods
[1:21 PM] FallingInward: That's a fair description.
[1:21 PM] FallingInward: I am wary of the academic approach however.
[1:22 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: How so?
[1:23 PM] FallingInward: I do like playing off of pre-existing belief to reduce cognitive dissonance.
[1:23 PM] FallingInward: Oh, I treat hypnosis as a hybrid of art and science.
[1:24 PM] FallingInward: Just as there is such a thing as technique in writing or music, there is also emergent expression.
[1:24 PM] FallingInward: I wouldn't want to be a writer who learned solely from books on "How to write"
[1:24 PM] FallingInward: I wouldn't want to be a hypnotist who followed the book on hypnotism.
[1:25 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: I see. I'm strictly in the science department. Ericksonian works, and many treat it as art, however there's also a very strong logical mechanism to it. As far as I'm concerned, all science is art when done elegantly and aesthetically. For example, Igor Ledochowski leads his hypnotees through such a beautiful, coherent and clear process that it's just hard to not see the underlying principles. And yet, he just makes it up on the fly.
[1:25 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: And obviously, following scripts is basically the worst thing a person can do, so we definitely agree there.
[1:25 PM] FallingInward: An interesting take.
[1:26 PM] FallingInward: I find that often a scientific approach produces the most reliable outcomes in many fields, because of its predictive nature, but often leaves out edge cases. This is especially true wherever subjectivity is concerned.
[1:27 PM] FallingInward: I heard a very interesting talk a while ago on trying to reproduce "the bluest blue"
[1:28 PM] FallingInward: I like hearing about hypnotic technique, but always with a skeptic's ear. No matter how skilled or educated the researcher or hypnotist, I never assume their postulations are the whole truth.
[1:29 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: To be entirely frank subjectivity of sensory stimulus doesn't really interest me within the context of hypnosis, because I do entirely accept the margins of error that arise from this issue. If I say "there's a blue baloon", people will see different shades, however they are still complying with instruction, which is all I can ever ask.
[1:29 PM] FallingInward: Haha, but the artistry of a suggestion can make all the difference!
[1:30 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Besides, most of our work is done on the more abstract, language level, which makes the need for precision quite obsolete as far as sensory perceptions go.
[1:31 PM] FallingInward: Imagine a balloon, awash with soothing blue hues as delicate and ever-changing as a the sea.
[1:31 PM] FallingInward:?
[1:31 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: And sure, I'm for that. The question is, though, since people see differently because of their physiology, how does one convey a particular color to a particular person?
[1:31 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Sure, are we talking green sea or blue sea? Deep or shallow?
[1:31 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Again, it's up to individual interpretation.
[1:31 PM] FallingInward: Exactly!
[1:31 PM] FallingInward: It's interactive art.
[1:32 PM] FallingInward: Learning to coax emotion and perception... its different from every person.
[1:32 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Emotion? Easy as hell. Perception? Easy. Precise perception? Super hard.
[1:32 PM] FallingInward: sighs~
[1:33 PM] Ferinzz: But necessary? Not really.
[1:33 PM] knotboundkitten: pictured a balloon that was kind of tie-dyed
[1:33 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Well, I work in therapy, so to be quite frank, I'm far from the best person to talk about this in particular, as I just go for behavioral changes 99% of the time.
[1:33 PM] FallingInward: I'm talking about the beauty that comes from two minds feeding into each other.
[1:33 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: knotboundkitten what's seventeen divided by green?
[1:34 PM] FallingInward: Shared fantasy, for instance.
[1:34 PM] FallingInward: Sevengreen, obviously.
[1:34 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward I've no idea what you're talking about at this point.
[1:34 PM] knotboundkitten: o.o
[1:35 PM] knotboundkitten: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 I can't even
[1:36 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: What does it do to your mind, knotboundkitten ?
[1:36 PM] knotboundkitten: It gives me a headache
[1:36 PM] FallingInward: I'm talking about sceneplay, specifically in the realm of conjuring an experience that is both interpretive yet also constructed by the hypnotist. I know those terms could be used to describe lots of things, so there is a bit of failure in my ability to use language to describe it.
[1:37 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Ah. Guided visualization, basically?
[1:37 PM] FallingInward: Visualization implies one modality, I use as many as are relevant to the experience.
[1:37 PM] FallingInward: But yes.
[1:37 PM] FallingInward: And this is a kink community, so think interactive.
[1:37 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Well, call it mentalization.
[1:37 PM] FallingInward: Also imagine that the hypnotist also spends some time in trance.
[1:38 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Ledochowski does to avoid the whole "I don't see shit" phenomenon.
[1:38 PM] FallingInward: Hahaha. I like that a lot.
[1:38 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Well, yeah, if you don't go into trance with your subjects, you're not a good hypnotist.
[1:38 PM] FallingInward: Mmmmm. ^.^
[1:38 PM] FallingInward: Sparks fly...
[1:39 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Keep in mind I'm talking about therapy, so it might be different in the context of say, stage hypnosis or street hypnosis.
[1:39 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Trance allows for more precise observation and a higher degree of communication.
[1:40 PM] FallingInward: I'm thinking 1 on 1 or small group, so not quite street hypno, but not with the goal-oriented / change-oriented hypnosis you would see for therapy.
[1:40 PM] FallingInward: Not that I wouldn't do changework for those purposes, but usually my relationships are based on recreation.
[1:41 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Fun.
[1:41 PM] FallingInward: Yep ^.^
[1:42 PM] knotboundkitten: I'm still hung up on the fact the math doesn't work like that Dx
[1:43 PM] Ferinzz: What do you mean? It's obviously the green of the seventh hole.
[1:43 PM] knotboundkitten: x.x nuuu
[1:44 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's se-reen.
[1:45 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: What you do is, you ask a person a bullshit question like that, and when you see their eyes widen you go "SLEEP! deeper, deeper down, that's right, you know that I used the word sleep, but you're still awake and aware, you can hear my voice, and continue relaxing, deeper, deeper, that's right, allow this state to continue and each breath makes you more and more relaxed and loose, your mind can just let go and enjoy, if you'd like for it to just relax as well, perhaps even more than your body".
[1:45 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Of course, that's a bit long, but that's basically how I do instants.
[1:46 PM] knotboundkitten: o.o
[1:46 PM] knotboundkitten: mew
[1:48 PM] Hay1tsme: Does that work?
[1:49 PM] Hay1tsme: I feel like that's like finding a really easy-to-use glitch in a game
[1:50 PM] Hay1tsme: You're like 'how do you miss that? How does that work?'
[1:50 PM] FallingInward: Shock inductions, confusion inductions, and pattern interrupt inductions.
[1:50 PM] FallingInward: Yes they work.
[1:50 PM] ~Alex~: Handshake induction is on youtube with some very amusing examples
[1:50 PM] FallingInward: Gosh, I hate the word Sleep with hypnosis.
[1:50 PM] ~Alex~: Derren Brown got David Tennant with it
[1:50 PM] FallingInward: It's like giving someone alcohol and saying "let's get high"
[1:51 PM] FallingInward: Different experiences.
[1:51 PM] FallingInward: Sleep is so far from trance it feels like blasphemy to say it.
[1:51 PM] FallingInward: Also... there's so much irony in someone mind controlling David Tennant
[1:52 PM] Hay1tsme: Lol
[1:52 PM] ~Alex~: He mind controlled David to predict the future and read a stranger's mind
[1:52 PM] ~Alex~: Weirdest shit I've seen, nothing close to what I was expecting
[1:53 PM] ~Alex~: Hell if I know what sort of priming was involved
[1:54 PM] FallingInward: knotboundkitten If you can imagine a tie-dye balloon when I tell you to think of hues shifting like the sea, surely you could imagine that tie-dye moving across its surface like the colors in a soap bubble.
[2:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward hypnox.pl/direct-hypnosis/why-sleep/
[2:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Re: sleep
[2:25 PM] Aona: is hypno collateral, just saying, scoots away
[2:29 PM] Ferinzz: Waa?
[2:33 PM] knotboundkitten: @fallinginward I had been already
[2:34 PM] Hay1tsme: peep
[3:50 PM] FallingInward: Not a huge fan of that theory regarding "Sleep." I would say it is more likely that the subject has already seen many media portrayals of hypnosis, and has thus been primed for that word, as well as the state itself.(edited)
[3:51 PM] FallingInward: But it still bores me to tears.
[3:52 PM] FallingInward: Besides, I am not a big fan of "sudden" shock-and-drop. It's flashy and exciting for people to watch, but I like chipping away at a person steadily in such a way that they don't know when they entered trance at all.(edited)
[3:54 PM] ~Alex~: Shock inductions are amusing, but in the same sense that brackets are. They're a brevity for situations where you cannot commit to chipping away, or a tool to be used while chipping away
[3:55 PM] FallingInward: I do like hairpulling as a shock induction though.
[3:56 PM] FallingInward: Nothing quite says "shut the fuck up and listen to me Now" like having your hair yanked.
[3:57 PM] Hay1tsme: Ouchie ;w;
[3:57 PM] Hay1tsme: I don't like having my hair pulled personally, hurts too much
[3:58 PM] Hay1tsme: I don't really get how shock inductions work tho
[4:09 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward fair enough. Still, this also works entirely well on people who haven't been primed, so there's something to the dissociation theory that has an allure for me. As far as shock-and-drop, I've yet to see any reason whatsoever not to use it. Also, hair pulling? Doesn't sound like shock, more like "comply or I'll smash your face".
[4:18 PM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 The shock and drop thing is simply not as fun as slowly whittling and working your way through a subject's mind
[4:18 PM] Dutchman: a bump on the back of the head or forehead works also
[4:19 PM] Dutchman: it shockes the person and if you do it on the back.. you let there heads go down
[4:19 PM] Aona:?
[4:19 PM] Dutchman: just with 1 finger
[4:26 PM] ~Alex~: What other things can you interrupt easily other than the handshakes?
[4:54 PM] FallingInward: The hairpulling thing is great if the subject isn't expecting physical contact.
[4:55 PM] FallingInward: They go from having control over their physical space to suddenly being invaded by a gesture of physical dominance.
[4:55 PM] FallingInward: The surprise of the act, as well as the shift in agency, puts the subject off-balance for just enough time to start giving suggestions.
[4:56 PM] FallingInward: Also for sexually submissive subjects, you can get them to accept suggestions by virtue of submission rather than trickery, if they feel put into a position where they are not assertive enough to question.
[7:25 PM] ~Alex~: I suspect the hair pulling thing would be much more of a D/s move than a platonic hypnosis thing o.o
[7:26 PM] Aona: Who cares, uit soudns awesome.
[7:30 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: ^
[7:30 PM] Ganryu: oh i've seen the hair-pulling thing, it's amusing when done properly
[7:32 PM] Ganryu: and honestly is somewhat fabulous ^-^
[7:32 PM] ~Alex~: @aona, my point is that you'd probably not want to have someone pull that type of induction on you unless you were intimate, unless I'm mistaken?(edited)
[7:32 PM] ~Alex~: It's my opinion, at least
[7:33 PM] Ganryu: very true
[7:38 PM] Aona: If they're putting me under then imn prob intimate with them
[7:38 PM] Aona: xD
[7:40 PM] ~Alex~: But not guarenteed
[6:35 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: As for pattern interrupts, anything can do. Even walking.
[6:43 AM] methos: Soundes good.
[1:29 AM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 I think you're using the wrong definition of "fall"
[4:42 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @~Alex~ how so?
[6:12 PM] ~Alex~: Mostly punning on interrupting someone's walking @surgo of Hypnotism +5
[4:49 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Nah, it works fine.
[3:31 AM] ~Alex~: Subject: Do what comes naturally, as long as you're enjoying yourself you're doing it right. There's no wrong way as long as you're trying and having fun
Tist: Confidence is at least half the battle, if not more. If you goof up, roll with it instead of flounder over it
[1:18 PM] DarkElement: Alex had really good answers so i'll try and add something different:
(Disclaimer, i'm not too experienced in this so I wouldn't be surprised if I get completely refuted) Something i've learned from sessions with a friend of mine is that when he would ask me questions, i'd have an answer immediately but then I would think about it and get conflicted. Much like the decision-game of flipping a coin and picking the choice that correlated with what side you wanted it to land on mid-air, perhaps when you answer a question immediately it's your subconscious that's answering, instead of giving it time for your conscious to interfere. It's very interesting, because at least for me I expected it to be completely different(and it still may be completely different to other subs), but I still have a very good deal of control. Anyway, perhaps i've rambled but I hope you guys know what I mean.
[5:10 PM] ~Alex~: @darkelement Giving a result immediately off the top of your head may be the result in it coming from your heart, but without passing through your mind thoroughly it may or may not be expressed most clearly
Tist/Public Speaking tip: Work on getting rid of Ums, Uhs, and other filler words. It's OK if you pause in your speech for a moment and let it be quiet while you think.
[7:06 PM] DarkElement: That's a very good point @~Alex~ , thanks!
[5:15 AM] Theatrics: Definitely with Alex.
[5:16 AM] Theatrics: Another tip for removing those awkward pauses is to just slow down. Make every word you say sound carefully chosen. Easier said than done, perhaps, but when it works, it works very well.
[7:24 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Subject: follow instructions exactly as they're given.
Understand what hypnosis is. There's an abundance of bad
hypnotists; choose well.
Hypnotist: yes, your stuff works. And yes, you're wrong.
Never stop learning.
[8:03 AM] ~Alex~: Thanks, Theatrics!
[8:04 AM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 That is an interesting dichotomy there. Sounds like you're suggesting subjects figure out what hypnosis is, but letting tists know that's impossible
[8:05 AM] ~Alex~: I do agree with the "never stop learning" bit, though
[8:05 AM] ~Alex~: You stagnate as soon as you "figure everything out"(edited)
[8:08 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's not a dichotomy. I'm saying, one can never know precisely how things work. I started with Ericksonian, went through Elman, now I'm delving into the neuropsych of hypnosis, and shit doesn't stop amazing me at the complexity of what's really going on.
[8:09 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Does this make sense, @~Alex~ ?
[8:10 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The subject is only interested in what they need to do. The hypnotist is concerned with that, AND how to best structure instructions for the subject so they have an easier time, and better results.
[8:11 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's part of why I loathe Ericksonian hypnosis. It's hella inefficient.
[8:29 AM] ~Alex~: It does, it's simply an interesting thing x3
Though I like Ericksonian hypnosis because it has a tendency to work on people who don't even realize something is happening. I've had a lot of success with it
[9:12 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Ericksonian works wonderfully, however it is unequivocally slower and overall less effective in doing the "weird" stuff. Like hallucinations, stage shows, achieving somnambulism and meta-somnambulistic states, etc.
[9:13 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's part of the reason why I switched to Elman in the first place; I am specializing in mental disorders, and Ericksonian doesn't help much here, especially when people are emotionally disturbed, and start abreacting, can't focus, etc. etc.
[9:29 AM] ~Alex~: Also keep in mind that it's not an either-or. Styles and tricks can be combined
[10:30 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Oh, absolutely. I'm talking from a purist perspective, despite using everything in my actual work.
[10:30 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: I still rely on Elman more than Erickson however, especially when dealing with "tough" people.
[11:40 AM] Alexis DPStrogen: makes a note to do more research.... A LOT more research....
[11:44 AM] Alexis DPStrogen: One of the problems of being self-taught is that I don't really know the differences between techniques, so my work tends to be a weird combination of stuff >.>
[12:02 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Feel free to ask. I highly recommend getting training, but it's not necessary as long as you have a network of people to talk to and share notes with.
[2:39 PM] ~Alex~: Once you know the names of major theories you can also google the terms and download study guides and notes from dozens of sources
[2:42 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: True!
[2:42 PM] ~Alex~: Some more reputable than others, mind you, but in a sense as long as it sounds like it's good enough to work you can typically just gaslight past it with your confidence and their willingness
[3:11 PM] Knowing-Smile: I found Wiseguy's book helpful as well
[3:11 PM] Knowing-Smile: well, informative, at least
[3:43 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Haven't read it, personally. Does it cover advanced concepts, or is it more the Reality is Plastic?
[3:49 PM] DarkElement: The Reality is Plastic?
[3:49 PM] DarkElement: Oh, like how reality is only what we perceive of it right?
[4:05 PM] ~Alex~: Looks like a book that is not as good as Derren Brown's series
[4:19 PM] Knowing-Smile: It's kind of just a basic primer on erotic hypnosis
[4:20 PM] Knowing-Smile: I should still read Lee & Pynch's amnesia book
[4:20 PM] Knowing-Smile: it's dumb and won't work on my kindle
[4:21 PM] Dutchman: tbh... i never read a book.. but i have done all of it.. amnesia.. hallucination.. age regression.. all of it
[4:23 PM] Knowing-Smile: same, but it's nice reading tips and tricks
[4:24 PM] ~Alex~: Is that a new book, Knowing?
[4:24 PM] Knowing-Smile: I was a lot happier doing amnesia play after going to Lee's class on it
[4:24 PM] Knowing-Smile: same with drug play
[4:24 PM] ~Alex~: I remember getting a survey to fill out at some point from her
[4:25 PM] ~Alex~: Ran out of time, though :/
[4:25 PM] Knowing-Smile: the amenesia one?
[4:25 PM] Knowing-Smile: I think it came out around christmas
[4:27 PM] DarkElement: Whaddya mean by amnesia play?
[4:27 PM] Knowing-Smile: memory play, etc
[4:27 PM] DarkElement: Ok wasn't sure if it was what I was thinking of or not
[4:27 PM] Knowing-Smile: like safely having a subject forget things
[4:27 PM] DarkElement: Yea
[4:28 PM] Knowing-Smile: including like having no memory at all for periods
[4:28 PM] Dutchman: you know a great anmesia suggestion? ^^ if they are in a trance.. you say.. and let all this nice trance and place and suggestions stay with the subcon mind.. and most of the time they will forget it
?[4:28 PM] DarkElement: Ayy that's on the todo list
[4:28 PM] Knowing-Smile: or not being able to form new memories
[4:28 PM] DarkElement: Waaatttttt
[4:28 PM] Knowing-Smile: yea, that's fun
[4:28 PM] DarkElement: That's awesome
[4:28 PM] Dutchman: yeah
[4:28 PM] DarkElement: added
[4:29 PM] Knowing-Smile: and Lee and Pynch explained how the mind works and what suggestions are most effective for achieving these states, etc.
[4:29 PM] ~Alex~: I'd be interested in reading that
[4:29 PM] DarkElement: One day!
[4:29 PM] Knowing-Smile: this was from their thing at MEEHU, not the book
[4:30 PM] ~Alex~: The way people parse memory play doesn't make sense to me, so I typically treat it with skepticism
[4:30 PM] Knowing-Smile: Lee did a thing at WEEHU about drug play and how to avoid bad things happening, like accidently triggering relapses when you're unaware of a subjects past drug use
?[4:30 PM] DarkElement: Oh god
[4:30 PM] DarkElement: That would be horrible
[4:31 PM] Knowing-Smile: sometimes reading and listening is a good thing because you learn from peoples unfortunate mistakes
[4:31 PM] Dutchman: i never done drug play
[4:31 PM] Knowing-Smile: Maestro's abreaction class was along the same lines
[4:31 PM] DarkElement: I am glad I have never done the drugs so I don't have this fear
[4:31 PM] Knowing-Smile: like, here's how to spot an abreaction, adress it, and decypher the issue.
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: abreaction?
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: Abnormal reaction?
[4:32 PM] Knowing-Smile: abnormal reaction
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: Ok
[4:32 PM] Knowing-Smile: aka your subject reacting in a way you were not expecting
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: Yep
[4:32 PM] Knowing-Smile: it can be good, or they can start screaming
[4:32 PM] DarkElement: ._.
[4:33 PM] DarkElement: Phobias, past trauma, etc
[4:33 PM] Knowing-Smile: i.e. one time I did a thing that involved falling into water to relax, and the girl had almost drowned.
[4:33 PM] DarkElement: Yea...
[4:34 PM] Knowing-Smile: the class was cool, proff-x did a followup the next day where she staged abreactions for tists in the class and had them figure out how to recover and take care of the situation
[4:35 PM] DarkElement: 1) Did she just add several abreactions to the subjects or what?
2) Who is proff-x
[4:36 PM] Dutchman: tbh... i never been so deep that i have fully believed or seen something that was not there
?[4:37 PM] Knowing-Smile: she acted them out herself
[4:37 PM] DarkElement: Oh ok
[4:38 PM] Knowing-Smile: and she's a person who runs random stuff in the san francisco community
[4:38 PM] Knowing-Smile: I don't really know her well
[4:38 PM] DarkElement: Alrighty
[4:42 PM] Knowing-Smile: but yea, I guess circling back, advice: just because you have a knack for hypnosis, don't become complacent and think that reading more or learning more about it is beneath you. (I'm guilty of this)
[4:43 PM] DarkElement: Same goes for everything!
?[4:43 PM] Dutchman: i'm just lazy >.>
[4:44 PM] ~Alex~: There's a lot of people I've stumbled across who have this "highway or my way" approach for hypnosis
[4:45 PM] ~Alex~: As Surgo mentioned, what matters as a tist is not your expectations, but the subject's
[4:45 PM] Dutchman: true
[5:04 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: Agreed
[5:28 PM] Knowing-Smile: U GO DEEP 4 ME M8
[5:32 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: WHY WON'T YOU DROP I SAID SLEEP AND EVERYTHING
[5:37 PM] DarkElement: Pretty sure this channel is not meant for that, however.
[5:38 PM] Knowing-Smile: heh
[5:38 PM] ~Alex~: I got so confused thinking that the topic had switched to talking about Oprah's preternatural skill in Ericksonian Hypnosis
[5:39 PM] Knowing-Smile: !meme yuno "Y U NO" "GO DEEPER?!"
[5:39 PM] HypnoBoot 2.5: i.imgflip.com/12rvgl.jpg
[5:39 PM] Knowing-Smile: I felt that was at least a little related
[5:39 PM] ~Alex~: xD
[9:09 PM] ~Alex~: For those interested in Ericksonian Hypnosis, the Zebu Cards here are good ways to practice: www.scribd.com/doc/20656494/Zebu-Hypnotic-Language-Card-Game
Scribd
Zebu Hypnotic Language Card Game
Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.
[9:21 PM] Knowing-Smile: I wish someone would just reprint those
[9:37 PM] ~Alex~: Only you have the power to change the world!
[9:38 PM] ~Alex~: Also: www.amazon.com/Zebu-Hypnotic-Language-Card-Game/dp/1555520464
Zebu: The Hypnotic Language Card Game [Robert Anue] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Created by Robert Anue, ZEBU is a normal boxed deck of 52 playing cards with 52 extraordinary language patterns taken from the field of NLP and the field of hypnosis from the work of Milton H. Erickson
[9:38 PM] ~Alex~: The more interesting method is to convert them to .png files and host them on a card-type server
[12:15 AM] Deb: As far as safeties go, if it's something your concerned about, don't be afraid to talk about it with the tist. Communication is vital so that boundaries are respected and both parties have safe/enjoyable fun.
[12:15 AM] ~Alex~: This times 1,000
[12:15 AM] Alexis DPStrogen: YES
[5:16 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: "not being able to form new memories"
Please do not misrepresent the actual mechanics between apparent effect and actual effect.
[5:17 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The person still forms all new memories, like normal, however amnesia simply makes it impossible for them to make those memories conscious.
[12:05 PM] JV: Mmmm
[12:05 PM] JV: Is amnesia necessarily always equated to the suppression of memories?
[12:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's not suppression.
[12:18 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's inhibition of the recall process.
[12:18 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The memory isn't affected or accessed in the slightest in the first place.
[12:18 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: ^
[12:22 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: the way I do it is giving a suggestion that INSTEAD of remembering, they feel the hazy pleasure of not remembering, because good pets forget and if you're a good pet, that means that every time you try to remember, you'll instead think of the arousal that comes with forgetting. It feels so much better to forget, and since that feels better than focusing on the memories of trance.... You can give the illusion of true amnesia
[12:25 PM] JV: Interesting..
[12:25 PM] JV: you provide an alternative incentive
[12:29 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: Mmhmm. As for forgetting stuff like numbers and names, you just suggest that holding on to that word is like holding water in your hand. Sure, you can grasp it for a moment, but it's always hazy, never clear and focused. And it quickly drips between your fingers and soaks into your skin
[12:30 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: Mind you, with my pet, I CAN actually suppress her memories - She's been programmed and conditioned so much that if you tell her to forget something, her brain will actually suppress that memory or information. She's got a weird brain though
?[2:14 PM] ~Alex~: I've been able to "forget" things before, but either it's a thing where I know what I'm forgetting conceptually and consciously choose not to recall (in methods of distraction similar to Nyalexis's) or it's simply gone and I don't get it back without some very direct reminders
[2:15 PM] ~Alex~: On the plus side, proficiency with the former means that I can let concepts slip from my mind if they're unwanted, particularly very disturbing things that most people seem to get burned into their retinas
[2:15 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: Hehe natural brain bleach!
[2:20 PM] ~Alex~: The utility is wonderful <3
[2:30 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @alexis DPStrogen , again, it's not suppression.
As far as suggestions go, "when I snap my fingers, you won't be able to remember or recall XYZ until I tell you otherwise" is sufficient.
[2:32 PM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 , when you suppress a memory like that, how would you describe what happens in the subject's head?(edited)
[2:35 PM] Dutchman: same as with a pc.. if you delete it.. it is allways there.. only you can't access it
[2:35 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: As with all hypnotic amnesia, the suggestion inhibits the subject's ability to make the unconscious memory conscious again.
[2:44 PM] ~Alex~: I understand the theoretical description of what's happening, but I'm wondering about the mental process in which the subject goes through to accomplish the inhibition ofmthe subject's ability to make the unconscious memory conscious
[2:45 PM] ~Alex~: In effect, I'm asking for step by step instructions on how to make a PB&J sandwich. I know you get the ingredients out and put them together properly, but not how that would be accomplished
[2:46 PM] ~Alex~: Disclaimer: I know how to make a peanut butter and jelly sammich
[2:48 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: I don't entirely understand the question.
[2:48 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Do you mind elaborating slightly?
[2:53 PM] ~Alex~: So if asked how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, someone might say "Well, you just get the bread and peanut butter and jelly, put the peanut butter and jelly onto the bread, and eat it". But if you've never seen a sandwich before nor made food yourself, you may have difficulty with just those descriptions
On the other hand, if someone said " Get two slices of bread, a knife, and some peanut butter and jelly. Use the knife to spread the peanut butter evenly on one face of one slice of bread, then get some jelly and spread some jelly evenly on one face of the other slice of bread. Put the peanut buttered and jellied sides against one another and eat" then you have complete and accurate directions with very little wiggle room.
With regards to your answer, it was more of the former than the latter. What does feel like to make something unconscious, what thought process inhibits a subjects reflexive knowledge of thinking their own name when it comes up? Etc etc(edited)
[3:01 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Okay, back. Sorry. So basically you're asking about how this works from the subject's perspective?
[3:02 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's basically like a gap in ones memory.
[3:02 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: For example, if you have never bungee jumped, you'll get the same thing if you try to remember how you felt when you did that.
[3:02 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: What comes up? Nothing.
[3:23 PM] ~Alex~: That is a good start, but what leads from "remembering how it was to bungee jump" to "not remembering how it was to bungee jump"
[3:23 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: There's no step.
[3:23 PM] ~Alex~: I suspect there's no single right answer because minds function very differently
[3:23 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Oh, there is.
[3:23 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Basically.
[3:24 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Since the process of recall is inhibited, nothing happens.
[3:24 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: One literally is unable to make the unconscious memory (permanent memory) conscious (bring it into the short-term memory).
[3:25 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The whole process is basically unconscious, which is why a deep enough hypnosis is necessary.
[3:26 PM] ~Alex~: How is it inhibited is my curiosity. Answering "there is no step" sounds akin to saying "a microwave heats things because it does". It works, and you can use it, and it'll work each time, but the method exists even if you're unaware
[3:26 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: The inhibition is in the subconscious mind. It's a separate mechanism which interferes with normal recall, basically.
[3:28 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: socrates.berkeley.edu/~kihlstrm/hypnosis_memory.htm
[3:37 PM] ~Alex~: Ah! Imma look into that
[3:38 PM] ~Alex~: It still feels like a hand wave, though
[9:43 AM] FallingInward: I'm not convinced that any one particular framework in psychology is accurate, but many can be useful
[9:44 AM] FallingInward: Anyway, my advice to budding hypnotists is to worry about demeanor and ethics before you worry about technique.
[9:44 AM] FallingInward: fallinginward.tumblr.com/post/142773050165/hypnofetishtrustpyramid
[9:45 AM] FallingInward: I wrote a lot of my general thoughts on the subject here. Enjoy~
[9:45 AM] Ferinzz: Have had that open for the last few days and still haven't read all of it >.<
[9:46 AM] FallingInward: Haha. It is a bit long, but I wanted to be thorough.
[9:46 AM] Ferinzz: I like the thorough.
[9:46 AM] FallingInward: I don't like soundbite advice for something as important as consent ethics.
[9:46 AM] Gale Falcon: That's fair enough, it's a bit late for too much reading atm but I'll give it a read later
[9:48 AM] Ferinzz: Mhm, can't say it enough. I feel like the more you understand about such things the better you'll be as a person when interacting with others. Shows your respect I guess.
[9:48 AM] Gale Falcon: Agreed.
[9:56 AM] FallingInward: I think the take away advice is that the best way to make someone suggestible is to have a healthy and trusting relationship.
[9:57 AM] FallingInward: It really breaks down barriers.
[9:58 AM] FallingInward: Trust can take you even farther than rapport, because it goes beyond surface level. It's more than just charming a person, it is connecting with them.
[9:58 AM] FallingInward: What better way to get into someone's head than to already be there?
[10:00 AM] Gale Falcon: To be able to tap into a connection you already have as opposed to trying to make a new one
[10:01 AM] Ferinzz: Going from that perspective it definitely opens up many other methods of initiating some sessions depending on the relationship the two have.
[10:02 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward question: where do you draw the line between seduction and non-consensual play?
It's rather easy to lure a person into sex or even do actual changework/therapy/conditioning on a person without asking for consent, but implicitly getting it (in the form of "yes, fuck me harder").
Especially taking into account that even normal sex elicits hypnotic phenomena in the form of hyperempiria, the line here is blurry. Then you have to consider that they subconsciously do want to follow suggestions if they're going along with your words, and the fact that their self-preservation function is always active.
I'd say there's entirely no ethical concern in using hypnosis covertly insofar as it's done with the best interest of the other person in mind, even if it's just giving them a very good time in bed.
[10:32 AM] FallingInward: I agree. I actually spend a great deal of time considering this blurry line.
[10:33 AM] FallingInward: On one hand, one can hardly disallow seduction; on some level, every interaction we have with a potential sexual partner is tinged by the desire to get their consent.
[10:34 AM] FallingInward: As a hypnotist, once you are aware of the impact of your words and actions, everything you do has an influence.
[10:35 AM] FallingInward: The best answer I have come up with is taking care not to work against a person's best interests, and to allow that they have the right to define those interests for themselves.
[10:35 AM] FallingInward: Covert hypnotism is a tricky subject in this sense.
[10:36 AM] FallingInward: I prefer to draw the line at actual suggestions; luring is acceptable, as is posturing to elicit an effect.
[10:37 AM] FallingInward: Although its true that a predator could easily work within these limits to hurt someone, it is ultimately just guidelines for communication, which can be used for good or evil depending on the intent of the communicator.
[10:38 AM] FallingInward: I do like the concept of implied consent spaces, such as the public hypno fun room, where people are aware and consenting of the possibility of being hypnotized.
[10:39 AM] Gale Falcon: Yes. spaces like that are a good idea, and they give people opportunity to participate under their own terms.
[10:40 AM] Gale Falcon: As in they enter that space willingly, they're aware and consent to the possibility they'll be affected either directly or collaterally
[10:40 AM] FallingInward: That gives everyone a heads up about the potential of unusually effective methods of communication being employed, which makes "covert" more acceptable than in everyday conversation, wherein your average person wouldn't be prepared or consenting for such techniques.
[10:40 AM] Gale Falcon: And in such cases people might consider such techniques invasive or otherwise
[10:41 AM] FallingInward: I've still seen people get hurt or at least made very uncomfortable in such spaces, but only because the tist wasn't being responsible by checking the subject's state of mind.
[10:42 AM] FallingInward: They felt pressured and confused because they weren't familiar with NLP/driving techniques.
[10:43 AM] FallingInward: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 I hope that answers your question.
[10:43 AM] Gale Falcon: It certainly relayed a lot of helpful information
[10:57 AM] ~Alex~: I find implicit consent much more informing than explicit consent, but I've had someone explicitly state "yes" while all the implications in body language screamed "no". They have to be considered in unison.
[11:39 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward yes, it does. Feeling pressured and confused is an implicit "no" in my book, also, @~Alex~
[11:50 AM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 It is an implicit "no" indeed. I'd thought I took precautions against pressuring but clearly had missed something or other. The response absolutely floored me, catching me off guard, and after thinking on it I consider my reaction to it to be my single greatest mistake and regret in my life(edited)
[11:53 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Dotell. Storytime
?[12:15 PM] ~Alex~: Basically I took the subject at their word instead of trusting that "something is wrong" feeling, and that is never going to happen again
[12:15 PM] ~Alex~: Already called out three people on it since and things have worked out well
[12:24 PM] Ferinzz: Sooo, what do you do when you can't see their body language?
[12:29 PM] ~Alex~: If you suspect anything is off you should be pushing for at least a voice conversation
[12:30 PM] ~Alex~: I pushed and got a video conversation and squandered it
[12:30 PM] ~Alex~: Otherwise you're relying on catching them being evasive or contradictory
[12:30 PM] ~Alex~: Their behavior may still be off, but it's waaaaay easier to tell in voice or video
[12:36 PM] Ferinzz: I see, thanks
[12:47 PM] ~Alex~: Also, that implies you should be talking
[12:47 PM] ~Alex~: If you don't communicate, everything falls apart
[12:47 PM] ~Alex~: Communication is key
[12:48 PM] Ferinzz: Mhm
[12:51 PM] Hay1tsme: Which is worse: Bad communication or no communication?
[12:52 PM] Ferinzz: Bad communication, because no communication means you aren't doing anything \o/
[12:53 PM] MeltySarah: Bad communications I think ... More and less is worse than keeping it the same ~(edited)
[12:54 PM] Ferinzz: I don't think I understand what you mean in your second part there.
[12:55 PM] MeltySarah: If I ask you want me to punch you harder , and you don't tell me anything , I'll give you the same strenght ... if you say no i'll punch less
[12:57 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Worse: bad communication.
[12:57 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: No communication is no hypnosis, bad communication is bad hypnosis.
[1:02 PM] ~Alex~: No communication is bad communication. I put "lying" and "refusing to talk" both in the same category of "your relationship is going to get fucked"
[1:02 PM] ~Alex~: Surgo's point of view is assuming you're working with people you don't already have rapport with. Maintaining rapport requires honesty and communication
[1:03 PM] Ferinzz: That was how my answer would have worked as well
[1:05 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Building rapport is keeping your promises. "In a moment I'll count from 1 to 3. 1, 2, 3."
[1:05 PM] Ferinzz: If doing things with a person you've already started to interact with and not communication you're not going to be taking account of how they feel or if they even want to do anything. Running purely off of your own assumptions and desires. Bad communication... Well that's not good either, it could go anywhere from giving the person something they hadn't wanted, or missinterpretting to really hurting them.
[1:05 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's why the pre-talk is such a necessity.
[1:05 PM] Ferinzz: Mhm
[1:08 PM] Ferinzz: from my point of view pretalk is what should determine the direction of a session and the overall goal of continued sessions. Why? Because they aren't in the same frame of mind while in trance and will more easily just say 'okay'.
[1:08 PM] Ferinzz: That perspective just taken from something unrelated to hypnosis so other's might argue against it.
[1:09 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Well, yes. But moreso than that, it needs to explain to them what hypnosis is, isn't, and what they're supposed to do in order to get hypnotized. A person who fears hypnosis simply won't go into hypnosis. A person who has an ambivalent attitude towards suggestions won't follow them when hypnotized. A person who doesn't have a hypnotic contract will be tough to keep in check. A hypnotist who breaks the contract will make the hypnotee more prone to doing their own stuff in their head.
[1:10 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's why the pre-talk is so necessary. Without it, people naturally stay guarded, and fear, when there's nothing to be afraid of.
[1:10 PM] FallingInward: ^ Agreed
[1:10 PM] Ferinzz: Nicely put.
[1:10 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: FWIW, this is my pre-talk: hypnox.pl/what-is-hypnosis/
[1:12 PM] FallingInward: My pre-talk is largely based on what I want to accomplish. I hold several competing ideas of what is actually happening when you hypnotize someone.
[1:13 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward I'm more than happy to discuss that, as it's a fascinating topic in general.
[1:13 PM] FallingInward: For instance, I find arguing whether it is "state-based" to be irrelevant, since it has been demonstrated that many experiential changes have no currently measurable change in physiological state.
[1:13 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Uh, yes, they do have it. Let me grab you the papers.
[1:14 PM] FallingInward: I mean, for instance, what does a brain look like when experiencing the placebo effect?
[1:14 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0026374
www.thamesmedicallectures.com/ibva.html
www.mcmaster.ca/inabis98/woody/rainville0419/two.html
[1:15 PM] FallingInward: It is much more important whether you tell the subject that their brain is changing, or not changing, than whether it actually is, imho.
[1:15 PM] FallingInward: Thanks for the links, I will check them when not on mobile.
[1:15 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Yeah. It's a suggestion, as everything.
[1:15 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Still, I have a strict policy of always telling the truth.
[1:16 PM] FallingInward: Sometimes I say it is, sometimes I say it isn't. My belief on the matter are ambiguous, because I have seen strong arguments for different paradigms.
[1:16 PM] FallingInward: Mainly I go for a framework that provides the best experience.
[1:16 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward every learning process induces neuroplastic and biochemical changes.
[1:16 PM] FallingInward: Haha. Of course.
[1:17 PM] FallingInward: But does a hypnotic change differ from a non-hypnotic one?
[1:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Nope.
[1:17 PM] FallingInward: Does something bypassing the critical factor look any different than something that is critically evaluated?
[1:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: You can achieve the same change, but the process will be inhibited when the conscious mind is involved.
[1:18 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Let me get you an explanation... links here somewhere, one moment.
[1:18 PM] FallingInward: In these cases, you could argue that hypnosis is not a state at all, because any changes in state are identical to non-hypnotic processes.
[1:18 PM] FallingInward: You could argue... and as fascinating as the discussion is in an armchair, the subject's experience can be guided either way.
[1:19 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: www.stresscards.com/hypnotherapy_reappraisal.php
"Of course, we know that under ordinary circumstances
suggestions are not always accepted (and thus conditioning
doesn’t always result when an appropriate suggestion is
given). Why is this? Osgood [1963] holds that a suggestion
will tend to be rejected if it is incongruent with the
subject’s previously held beliefs and attitudes or his
present perceptions. It would seem that if there were some
means of eliminating the latter we should be able to have a
suggestion more readily accepted and thus facilitate the
higher-order conditioning. Hypnosis is such a means.
Thus we come to the reason hypnosis is so effective in
facilitating therapy: the incongruent perceptions, beliefs,
and attitudes are kept from interfering with the suggestion
(and thus with the conditioning). As put by Pavlov:
"The command of the hypnotist, in correspondence with the
general law, concentrates the excitation in the subject
(which is in a condition of partial inhibition) in some
definite narrow region, at the same time intensifying (by
negative induction) the inhibition of the rest of the cortex
and so abolishing all competing effects of contemporary
stimuli [present perceptions] and traces left by previously
received ones [previously held beliefs and attitudes]. This
accounts for the large and practically insurmountable
influence of suggestions as a stimulus during hypnosis as
well as shortly after it."
[Pavlov, 1960, p.407;].
Dr. Al Barrios, a clinical psychologist (BS Caltech, Ph.D. UCLA) is a recognized authority on the power of the word and its effect on human behavior. SPC provides a series of simple, step-by-step mind focusing techniques that allow individuals to reprogram any behavior they wish to change.
[1:20 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Hypnosis is not a state. Hypnosis is a process. Hypnotic trance is a state.
[1:20 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: That's why we have such wonderful tools as dynamic self-hypnosis, AIM, HWT, and others.
[1:21 PM] FallingInward: nods
[1:21 PM] FallingInward: That's a fair description.
[1:21 PM] FallingInward: I am wary of the academic approach however.
[1:22 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: How so?
[1:23 PM] FallingInward: I do like playing off of pre-existing belief to reduce cognitive dissonance.
[1:23 PM] FallingInward: Oh, I treat hypnosis as a hybrid of art and science.
[1:24 PM] FallingInward: Just as there is such a thing as technique in writing or music, there is also emergent expression.
[1:24 PM] FallingInward: I wouldn't want to be a writer who learned solely from books on "How to write"
[1:24 PM] FallingInward: I wouldn't want to be a hypnotist who followed the book on hypnotism.
[1:25 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: I see. I'm strictly in the science department. Ericksonian works, and many treat it as art, however there's also a very strong logical mechanism to it. As far as I'm concerned, all science is art when done elegantly and aesthetically. For example, Igor Ledochowski leads his hypnotees through such a beautiful, coherent and clear process that it's just hard to not see the underlying principles. And yet, he just makes it up on the fly.
[1:25 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: And obviously, following scripts is basically the worst thing a person can do, so we definitely agree there.
[1:25 PM] FallingInward: An interesting take.
[1:26 PM] FallingInward: I find that often a scientific approach produces the most reliable outcomes in many fields, because of its predictive nature, but often leaves out edge cases. This is especially true wherever subjectivity is concerned.
[1:27 PM] FallingInward: I heard a very interesting talk a while ago on trying to reproduce "the bluest blue"
[1:28 PM] FallingInward: I like hearing about hypnotic technique, but always with a skeptic's ear. No matter how skilled or educated the researcher or hypnotist, I never assume their postulations are the whole truth.
[1:29 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: To be entirely frank subjectivity of sensory stimulus doesn't really interest me within the context of hypnosis, because I do entirely accept the margins of error that arise from this issue. If I say "there's a blue baloon", people will see different shades, however they are still complying with instruction, which is all I can ever ask.
[1:29 PM] FallingInward: Haha, but the artistry of a suggestion can make all the difference!
[1:30 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Besides, most of our work is done on the more abstract, language level, which makes the need for precision quite obsolete as far as sensory perceptions go.
[1:31 PM] FallingInward: Imagine a balloon, awash with soothing blue hues as delicate and ever-changing as a the sea.
[1:31 PM] FallingInward:
?[1:31 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: And sure, I'm for that. The question is, though, since people see differently because of their physiology, how does one convey a particular color to a particular person?
[1:31 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Sure, are we talking green sea or blue sea? Deep or shallow?
[1:31 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Again, it's up to individual interpretation.
[1:31 PM] FallingInward: Exactly!
[1:31 PM] FallingInward: It's interactive art.
[1:32 PM] FallingInward: Learning to coax emotion and perception... its different from every person.
[1:32 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Emotion? Easy as hell. Perception? Easy. Precise perception? Super hard.
[1:32 PM] FallingInward: sighs~
[1:33 PM] Ferinzz: But necessary? Not really.
[1:33 PM] knotboundkitten: pictured a balloon that was kind of tie-dyed
[1:33 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Well, I work in therapy, so to be quite frank, I'm far from the best person to talk about this in particular, as I just go for behavioral changes 99% of the time.
[1:33 PM] FallingInward: I'm talking about the beauty that comes from two minds feeding into each other.
[1:33 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: knotboundkitten what's seventeen divided by green?
[1:34 PM] FallingInward: Shared fantasy, for instance.
[1:34 PM] FallingInward: Sevengreen, obviously.
[1:34 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward I've no idea what you're talking about at this point.
[1:34 PM] knotboundkitten: o.o
[1:35 PM] knotboundkitten: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 I can't even
[1:36 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: What does it do to your mind, knotboundkitten ?
[1:36 PM] knotboundkitten: It gives me a headache
[1:36 PM] FallingInward: I'm talking about sceneplay, specifically in the realm of conjuring an experience that is both interpretive yet also constructed by the hypnotist. I know those terms could be used to describe lots of things, so there is a bit of failure in my ability to use language to describe it.
[1:37 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Ah. Guided visualization, basically?
[1:37 PM] FallingInward: Visualization implies one modality, I use as many as are relevant to the experience.
[1:37 PM] FallingInward: But yes.
[1:37 PM] FallingInward: And this is a kink community, so think interactive.
[1:37 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Well, call it mentalization.
[1:37 PM] FallingInward: Also imagine that the hypnotist also spends some time in trance.
[1:38 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Ledochowski does to avoid the whole "I don't see shit" phenomenon.
[1:38 PM] FallingInward: Hahaha. I like that a lot.
[1:38 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Well, yeah, if you don't go into trance with your subjects, you're not a good hypnotist.
[1:38 PM] FallingInward: Mmmmm. ^.^
[1:38 PM] FallingInward: Sparks fly...
[1:39 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Keep in mind I'm talking about therapy, so it might be different in the context of say, stage hypnosis or street hypnosis.
[1:39 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Trance allows for more precise observation and a higher degree of communication.
[1:40 PM] FallingInward: I'm thinking 1 on 1 or small group, so not quite street hypno, but not with the goal-oriented / change-oriented hypnosis you would see for therapy.
[1:40 PM] FallingInward: Not that I wouldn't do changework for those purposes, but usually my relationships are based on recreation.
[1:41 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Fun.
[1:41 PM] FallingInward: Yep ^.^
[1:42 PM] knotboundkitten: I'm still hung up on the fact the math doesn't work like that Dx
[1:43 PM] Ferinzz: What do you mean? It's obviously the green of the seventh hole.
[1:43 PM] knotboundkitten: x.x nuuu
[1:44 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: It's se-reen.
[1:45 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: What you do is, you ask a person a bullshit question like that, and when you see their eyes widen you go "SLEEP! deeper, deeper down, that's right, you know that I used the word sleep, but you're still awake and aware, you can hear my voice, and continue relaxing, deeper, deeper, that's right, allow this state to continue and each breath makes you more and more relaxed and loose, your mind can just let go and enjoy, if you'd like for it to just relax as well, perhaps even more than your body".
[1:45 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Of course, that's a bit long, but that's basically how I do instants.
[1:46 PM] knotboundkitten: o.o
[1:46 PM] knotboundkitten: mew
[1:48 PM] Hay1tsme: Does that work?
[1:49 PM] Hay1tsme: I feel like that's like finding a really easy-to-use glitch in a game
[1:50 PM] Hay1tsme: You're like 'how do you miss that? How does that work?'
[1:50 PM] FallingInward: Shock inductions, confusion inductions, and pattern interrupt inductions.
[1:50 PM] FallingInward: Yes they work.
[1:50 PM] ~Alex~: Handshake induction is on youtube with some very amusing examples
[1:50 PM] FallingInward: Gosh, I hate the word Sleep with hypnosis.
[1:50 PM] ~Alex~: Derren Brown got David Tennant with it
[1:50 PM] FallingInward: It's like giving someone alcohol and saying "let's get high"
[1:51 PM] FallingInward: Different experiences.
[1:51 PM] FallingInward: Sleep is so far from trance it feels like blasphemy to say it.
[1:51 PM] FallingInward: Also... there's so much irony in someone mind controlling David Tennant
[1:52 PM] Hay1tsme: Lol
[1:52 PM] ~Alex~: He mind controlled David to predict the future and read a stranger's mind
[1:52 PM] ~Alex~: Weirdest shit I've seen, nothing close to what I was expecting
[1:53 PM] ~Alex~: Hell if I know what sort of priming was involved
[1:54 PM] FallingInward: knotboundkitten If you can imagine a tie-dye balloon when I tell you to think of hues shifting like the sea, surely you could imagine that tie-dye moving across its surface like the colors in a soap bubble.
[2:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward hypnox.pl/direct-hypnosis/why-sleep/
[2:17 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Re: sleep
[2:25 PM] Aona: is hypno collateral, just saying, scoots away
[2:29 PM] Ferinzz: Waa?
[2:33 PM] knotboundkitten: @fallinginward I had been already
[2:34 PM] Hay1tsme: peep
[3:50 PM] FallingInward: Not a huge fan of that theory regarding "Sleep." I would say it is more likely that the subject has already seen many media portrayals of hypnosis, and has thus been primed for that word, as well as the state itself.(edited)
[3:51 PM] FallingInward: But it still bores me to tears.
[3:52 PM] FallingInward: Besides, I am not a big fan of "sudden" shock-and-drop. It's flashy and exciting for people to watch, but I like chipping away at a person steadily in such a way that they don't know when they entered trance at all.(edited)
[3:54 PM] ~Alex~: Shock inductions are amusing, but in the same sense that brackets are. They're a brevity for situations where you cannot commit to chipping away, or a tool to be used while chipping away
[3:55 PM] FallingInward: I do like hairpulling as a shock induction though.
[3:56 PM] FallingInward: Nothing quite says "shut the fuck up and listen to me Now" like having your hair yanked.
[3:57 PM] Hay1tsme: Ouchie ;w;
[3:57 PM] Hay1tsme: I don't like having my hair pulled personally, hurts too much
[3:58 PM] Hay1tsme: I don't really get how shock inductions work tho
[4:09 PM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @fallinginward fair enough. Still, this also works entirely well on people who haven't been primed, so there's something to the dissociation theory that has an allure for me. As far as shock-and-drop, I've yet to see any reason whatsoever not to use it. Also, hair pulling? Doesn't sound like shock, more like "comply or I'll smash your face".
[4:18 PM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 The shock and drop thing is simply not as fun as slowly whittling and working your way through a subject's mind
[4:18 PM] Dutchman: a bump on the back of the head or forehead works also
[4:19 PM] Dutchman: it shockes the person and if you do it on the back.. you let there heads go down
[4:19 PM] Aona:
?[4:19 PM] Dutchman: just with 1 finger
[4:26 PM] ~Alex~: What other things can you interrupt easily other than the handshakes?
[4:54 PM] FallingInward: The hairpulling thing is great if the subject isn't expecting physical contact.
[4:55 PM] FallingInward: They go from having control over their physical space to suddenly being invaded by a gesture of physical dominance.
[4:55 PM] FallingInward: The surprise of the act, as well as the shift in agency, puts the subject off-balance for just enough time to start giving suggestions.
[4:56 PM] FallingInward: Also for sexually submissive subjects, you can get them to accept suggestions by virtue of submission rather than trickery, if they feel put into a position where they are not assertive enough to question.
[7:25 PM] ~Alex~: I suspect the hair pulling thing would be much more of a D/s move than a platonic hypnosis thing o.o
[7:26 PM] Aona: Who cares, uit soudns awesome.
[7:30 PM] Alexis DPStrogen: ^
[7:30 PM] Ganryu: oh i've seen the hair-pulling thing, it's amusing when done properly
[7:32 PM] Ganryu: and honestly is somewhat fabulous ^-^
[7:32 PM] ~Alex~: @aona, my point is that you'd probably not want to have someone pull that type of induction on you unless you were intimate, unless I'm mistaken?(edited)
[7:32 PM] ~Alex~: It's my opinion, at least
[7:33 PM] Ganryu: very true
[7:38 PM] Aona: If they're putting me under then imn prob intimate with them
[7:38 PM] Aona: xD
[7:40 PM] ~Alex~: But not guarenteed
[6:35 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: As for pattern interrupts, anything can do. Even walking.
[6:43 AM] methos: Soundes good.
[1:29 AM] ~Alex~: @surgo of Hypnotism +5 I think you're using the wrong definition of "fall"
[4:42 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: @~Alex~ how so?
[6:12 PM] ~Alex~: Mostly punning on interrupting someone's walking @surgo of Hypnotism +5
[4:49 AM] Surgo of Hypnotism +5: Nah, it works fine.